Beyond Me - Part 7: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 137 you wrote about the children of Israel in the Old Testament: “But they began to presume on His grace and mercy. They forgot that, although they were saved by grace, there is still a law of sowing and reaping that even the sacrificial system does not override.

“And so, despite countless warnings to repent and return to the walk prescribed by God for His chosen people, they continued in sin, walking more and more in the ways of their idolatrous neighbors until they eventually ended up in exile in Babylon.”

I have heard that some leaders in the Presbyterian Church (USA) have actually said that the church should become more like our American society, being more tolerant of others like homosexuals. Do you think there’s a parallel to what happened in ancient Israel as you’ve referred to it here?

KM: The parallel is strong—and frightening. The Great Roman Empire imploded due to moral failure, and I see that possibility looming in our own beloved country. We can only spit in God’s eye and ignore His warnings so long before we can expect judgment to fall. I still pray and seek God’s mercy on our land and ask Him to send that gift of repentance, but I sometimes wonder if perhaps we have gone too far and judgment is imminent. Still, we must continue to pray—and to take a stand for righteousness every chance we get. Though we may be voices crying in the wilderness, cry we must, for countless souls are at stake. The Scriptures are clear that if we don’t warn the lost, then their blood is on our hands.

Do you see any warnings God is sending to the United States of America in our time like He sent to Israel, perhaps similar to the prophets of that time or other warnings?

KM: It would be easy to say that such catastrophic events as 9/11 are warnings from God—and perhaps they are. But I don’t pretend to be a prophet. I am simply a child of God who believes that every word in the Scriptures is true and worth dying for. Years ago I awoke from a sound sleep to hear God whisper to my heart, “Forever my Word has been settled in the heavens; now it is forever settled in your heart.” Despite anything I see going on around me—with or without obvious prophetic overtones—I will live and die based on the inerrant Word of God.

If yes, what is the way back to right living in God’s sight? What would it look like for individuals or our nation to heed the “countless warnings to repent and return to the walk prescribed by God”?

KM: Regardless of whether or not God is warning us as a country through current events, I don’t doubt for a moment that in His love and faithfulness He is calling us as individuals to repent and to commit our lives to His service. What would that look like? It would look like people who are more concerned with studying God’s Word and worshiping Him through obedience to that Word than to pleasing others and being caught up in the things our world thinks are important. It would mean giving of ourselves each time God gives us opportunity, and to do it without thought of reward. It would mean standing for truth even if everyone around us chooses to live a lie—and it means loving unconditionally those who disagree with and persecute us for our stand for righteousness.

From the book:

“As a parent, I did not wait until my children learned to walk to grant them admission into the family. They were mine from the moment of conception, and there was nothing they could do to sever that familial relationship” (p. 137).

Beyond Me - Part 6: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 90 you wrote, “A Christian stubbornly resisting the Spirit’s leading is vulnerable to the devil’s attacks and cannot fulfill the greatest commandments of all, the commandments that encompass ‘all the Law and the Prophets’: to love God will all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Such a Christian is in rebellion, and apart from repentance, her heart will continue to grow harder and harder until the voice of God grows too faint to be discerned amidst the deafening noise of countless other voices vying for our attention.”

On my June 30, 2008, blog, I wrote about a “seared conscience,” meaning repeated sin can damage that part of us that is sensitive to sin until it becomes insensitive—we just don’t feel it’s wrong any more. Is that basically what you’re saying here? What does a person need to do to cause his or her hard heart or seared conscience to become sensitive to God once again?

KM: That is absolutely what I’m saying, yes! A hard heart will block out the voice of God. I remember, when I was doing biblical counseling on a church staff some years ago, that I was often told by people who came in to see me that they just couldn’t hear from God. They insisted that they prayed and listened for an answer, but nothing came—thus implying that they weren’t at fault but God was.

In digging a bit deeper we soon discovered that in each of these cases, the person had already decided what he wanted to do (or not do) before praying about the issue and was therefore blocking out God’s answer because they were afraid it might be different from the one they wanted to hear. That’s an example of having a hard heart toward God—thinking that we know better than He what is good for us and therefore want to be in charge of calling the shots and then asking God to bless our decisions. It doesn’t work that way.

As for hardening our hearts and continuing in sin, we ALWAYS know God is warning us early in the process when we are considering sin as a choice, but when we make the choice to move ahead in that sin, we have also chosen to ignore God. With each such choice, our heart grows harder and His voice fades a bit more. It’s a dangerous place to be. If we know someone in that sort of situation, we need to pray for God to send the gift of repentance, even if it means that person’s hard heart must be broken. Better a broken heart on earth than a lost soul in eternity.

Beyond Me - Part 5: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 74 you write about “the hypocritical religious leaders of Jesus’s day who were spiritually abusing the very people to whom they were supposed to be ministering. For although these religious leaders had good intentions in trying to protect God’s Word and keep the people from breaking His laws and commands, their efforts had instead deteriorated into a form of legalistic religion, a perversion of God’s intentions.”

Do you see us Christians doing this same thing at times today? If yes, in what ways and how can we change to do better? And do you see forms of “spiritual abuse” happening today. If so, where? What does it look like?

KM: Yes, sadly I think we all fall into that at times. The most comprehensive definition of spiritual abuse I ever heard was this: Any time anyone in a position of spiritual authority (whether a pastor or priest, a parent, a Sunday school teacher) uses that position to come OVER someone and add to their burdens, rather than coming UNDERNEATH and helping to relieve those burdens, it is spiritual abuse. Do we do that? Oh, yes, absolutely! And we need to repent of it.

I believe the key to dealing with spiritual abuse is to recognize the true meaning of the word submission, which is “to come underneath in a safe place.” When we realize that, we will more willingly (and joyfully!) submit to God and to others, and we will more readily provide that safe place for those who are to submit to us. That sort of understanding (and commitment to walk accordingly) will revolutionize our relationships.

Beyond Me - Part 4: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

In chapter 3, “Do Unto Others,” you wrote: “Does Jesus’s command to ‘go and do likewise,’ even among those who have no respect for us or our faith, who may even be openly hostile toward us, rock a few of our boats as well? ...Because that means we have to open our hearts and our hands, even to those who may despise us—the gay activist, the abortionist, the career criminal—and give of ourselves, regardless of the cost. It means it’s not enough to protest against abortion; we need to work for the preservation of life, whether that includes giving of our finances and time to support the local crisis pregnancy center or taking a pregnant woman into our home and possibly even helping to raise her child. It means it’s not enough to condemn the sin of homosexuality in an effort to preserve the sanctity of marriage; we must exhibit unconditional love (not approval) to those trapped in that destructive lifestyle, even if they insult us and refuse our love” (pgs. 66, 67).

You say you are not preaching a “social gospel.” Could you please explain what a “social gospel” is and then tell us what you’re saying that’s different?

KM: Thanks for bringing this up, as it is a crucial distinction. A social gospel believes/preaches that compassion and kindness and acts of benevolence can, in and of themselves, solve social problems—and, if there is life after death, earn the doer of those good deeds some sort of eternal reward. It also intimates that any sort of stand for absolute truth is intolerant and, therefore, not kind or benevolent. The gospel of Jesus Christ—the true gospel—is in direct contrast to that sort of teaching.

The true gospel according to the Scriptures states emphatically that there is indeed absolute truth, and that truth is what God says it is, not what society reasons it should be. The true gospel also states that there is only one way to God the Father, and that is through accepting the blood atonement of His only Son, Jesus Christ. When a person has truly accepted that blood atonement as his own and been born again, then out of gratitude to God he will desire to serve others through acts of kindness and benevolence, but he will never make the mistake of thinking his kind acts are earning him an entrance into heaven.

I’ve heard the term “social justice” a lot in the church over the last couple of years. Do you have an idea of what this means?

KM: I’m not an expert by any means, but I will say this: On the surface it sounds like an excellent concept and one that Christians should be at the forefront of promoting. The problem is that the concept of social justice, though positive in that it implies the need for treating others with dignity and respect, compassion and equality, it also implies that justice can be achieved on this sin-filled planet and meted out by humans hands and by using human means. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Though as Christians I believe we should be the first to show compassion and mercy to those in need and to willingly give out of our own means to help the poor whenever possible, I believe we should do that primarily through our churches and definitely in accordance with scriptural guidelines, remembering that the Bible says that if we don’t work, we don’t eat! The scriptural guideline of helping the poor was never meant to enable laziness or unnecessary dependence on others. The integrity of God’s Word must never be compromised to achieve a manmade perception of justice. For that reason, I believe the term “social justice” could easily become a dangerous tool of the enemy to draw us away from our primary purpose as God’s people to proclaim God’s absolute truth and to call others to repentance and restoration. True social justice can only be achieved within the parameters of scriptural truth and God’s message of Good News to a lost world. If certain aspects of what some consider social justice are not achieved on this earth, we shouldn’t be surprised. Real equity will only be meted out in eternity.

Beyond Me - Part 3: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 52 you wrote: “I got sidetracked trying to prove my love [for Jesus Christ] by doing right things and not doing wrong things. In the process, I strayed away from my first Love…”

I think many people believe religion and Christianity are all about doing right things and not doing wrong things: If you do enough right and avoid doing enough wrong, you’ll get to heaven, right?

I’d say that appeasing God like this is indeed the point of many religions, but Christianity is different. Would you agree? And if so, how would you explain the difference?

KM: I agree completely. Every other religion/faith on the planet is based on some sort of “works” system (do more good works than evil and hopefully you’ll make it into heaven—whatever/wherever that may be). Even the Jewish faith, which was never meant to be that way, did end up with that sort of bent, at least to some extent.
The Christian faith, on the other hand, says, “I can NEVER do enough good works to earn my way into heaven because Jesus is the picture of God’s standard for entrance into heaven, and that standard is perfection. On my own, I haven’t a chance.” It is at that point of acknowledging our own helplessness to earn or deserve entrance into God’s presence that we throw ourselves on God’s mercy and accept His free gift of forgiveness and restoration, provided by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But lest we cheapen that gift, we must never forget that apart from it, God could not and would not forgive or accept us. He is a loving God, yes, but He is also righteous, and His righteousness demands the shedding of righteous blood for the remission of sins. Only Jesus qualifies to make that sacrifice—and aren’t we glad He did?

Beyond Me - Part 2: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 26 you wrote: “Jesus was no stranger to dealing with hard hearts. He never got sidetracked with politics or cultural agendas. He always went straight to the heart of a situation—people’s hearts, because He knew that people’s actions and words reflect their hearts. He understood that dealing with actions and words is nothing more than a temporary fix. For permanent results, He always dealt with hearts, and He dealt with them one at a time.”
You’re not saying it’s wrong to be involved in politics or cultural issues, are you?

KM: Absolutely not. Jesus Himself told us to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.” And though we are first and eternally citizens of heaven, we should also be the best citizens of our temporal country here on earth. How can we be salt and light if we aren’t involved?
The key is to be involved with the right motives. We don’t jump into politics to condemn, but rather to do what we can to lovingly correct—and we do that not as we proclaim our own opinions on right and wrong but rather as we stand for what God says is right. Jesus is the perfect example of how to do it, in that “while WE were still sinners, Christ died for us.” He didn’t excuse or overlook our sin, but He loved us enough to pay the price that we might be forgiven and restored to the Father. Ultimately, that should be our concern and purpose in everything we do—politics or otherwise—to see sinners restored to the Father’s heart.

In this blog I’ve recently been blogging about the leadership in the church, especially mainline denominations placing active homosexuals into leadership positions in the church.
If a person sees wrong behavior taking place—such as a person continuing to practice homosexuality, or the church accepting this behavior in its leaders—how can an individual respond to deal with the heart for permanent change, not just deal with actions and words which are a temporary fix?

KM: This is crucial, as dealing with actions and words are simply chopping off the offending branches. We must deal with the root, and that can only be done through prayer and intercession, as only God can change a heart. In the interim, we continually remember the admonition to “hate the sin but love the sinner,” as God does with us.

Does this also apply to taking time out of our busy schedule to speak up and speak out on issues, whether in politics or the church, to make certain the freedoms of America are protected for the next generation?

KM: If we believe that’s what God has called us to personally, then yes, absolutely. Each of us as believers has been called to the ministry of reconciliation, though that ministry will read out differently in each of us. Some of us are called to evangelize, some to teach, some to lead worship—and some to take a stand politically. So long as we know we are being faithful TODAY (which is all God requires of us) to do what God has called us to do, then we should do it confidently and with all our heart.

Beyond Me - Part 1: Interview with Kathi Macias

Throughout August, I’ll be posting an interview with author Kathi Macias about her new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008). Tune in especially the week of August 11th. I’m hosting her blog tour that week, so we’ll hear from Kathi every day – Monday through Friday. I hope you enjoy this interview!

Why did you want to write this book? What inspired you to write it?

KM: I’ve authored a lot of books over the last couple of decades, but this book is my “book of my heart,” the one I’ve worked on for many years. It has been a real labor of love because it is what God has been teaching me for the thirty-plus years I’ve known Him. And because I tend to learn things the hard way, God had to walk me through the message of this book many times before I finally “got it.” (And, of course, now that I’ve said that, I’ll probably find myself walking through it yet again!)

Of course, the message was hammered home to me many times as I wrote, including the time when I took my then pre-teen granddaughter shopping and the first thing she spotted was a line of cosmetics called “It’s About Me.” I remember thinking, “Wow, we really have our work cut out for us as Christians to counter that prevailing lie in our culture!”

What does it mean to live a you-first life in a me-first world?

KM: It means a lot of things, depending on our circumstances. Primarily it means putting God and others ahead of ourselves—and that’s not something we do naturally or easily. In fact, without God’s Spirit inside us to help and guide and strengthen us, we really can’t live a you-first lifestyle, even though that’s what God requires of us.

For me, coming to grips with a you-first lifestyle happened when, as a writer and speaker accustomed to public ministry, God spoke to my heart and told me, “Somebody has to set up the chairs.” I didn’t want to hear that because I knew it meant I had to spend my time serving others in public ministry, rather than being the one being served as I ministered. However, it was a powerful learning time when I began to walk in obedience to that directive.
Beyond-me living really hit home with me, though, when I was busy “grumbling” about how I wished I could spend my time writing instead of running errands for and caring for my almost 90-year-old mother who lives with us. In the midst of my grumbling, God’s words, “Somebody has to set up the chairs,” came back to me, and I knew God was reminding me that beyond-me living also meant serving people at all levels and circumstances in my life—including and especially those in my own home.

From the book:

“I felt myself relax as I began to understand God’s call to servanthood in my life—my personal call to live a you-first life in a me-first world. It wasn’t just about living selflessly so unbelievers would be drawn to Jesus. It was also about daily laying down my life, giving up the right to plan my days and order my steps, so that I could help others fulfill the needs of their day. It was about choosing to honor the sanctity of life, regardless of the personal costs, rather than selfishly guarding the quality and convenience of my life at the expense of others” (p. 24).