Beyond Me - Part 11: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

In chapter 9 you tell about the ancient and modern Jewish weddings and the parallels of that picture with the relationship between believers (Christians)—the bride—and Jesus Christ (God)—the groom.

Do you think this picture God has painted is skewed by homosexual marriages and civil unions between two men or two women?

KM: This picture is skewed anytime it deviates from God’s ideal, and homosexual marriages and civil unions between two men or two women would certainly fit into that category. So would marriages between a man and a woman who don’t first honor God and live accordingly, meaning being faithful to one another, honoring and respecting one another, and raising their children to love and serve God and others. When the divorce rate in the church is equal to the divorce rate in the world, it’s obvious we’re falling short in following the model God has given us.

On page 180 you wrote, “Brothers and sisters, it is time to grow up. We’ve got to put aside our childish ways. God’s desire is for us to walk in love for Him, for each other (the church) and for the world. Let’s leave behind the selfishness, the quarrels, the bickering, the pettiness, the unhealthy divisions.”

You write a lot about love. Do you think it is unloving to speak out against such things as homosexuality and abortion? What if standing against such wrong behaviors produces bickering or quarreling within the church?

KM: It is never wrong to proclaim God’s Word on any subject. It IS wrong to voice our opinions as if they were scripture. We therefore need to be careful that we are indeed proclaiming God’s Word (which is absolute truth) rather than offering our opinions (which are worth no more than the atheist’s or ax murderer’s opinions). Will that at times cause bickering and quarreling within the church? Possibly, but only with those who do not believe God’s Word is the final authority on all issues. In that case, we must—lovingly but firmly—take a stand and refuse to compromise.

From the book:

“We are to model a you-first life to a me-first world, loving God first and then giving of ourselves to strengthen our fellow believers and to draw unbelievers to Him” (p. 191).

Beyond Me - Part 10: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

In chapter 8 you write about how everything we as individuals own is a gift from God and not something we have earned with our own strength. You wrote “That attitude is dangerous, because we can easily become stingy and judgmental towards others, rationalizing that if they worked as hard as we do, they too could amass the same possessions and conveniences that we have.”

You then, on page 154, quote Joel Belz, founder of World magazine as follows:

“If, on the one hand, we are persuaded deep in our hearts that we have earned
what we have in life, then we tend to expect others to do the same. But if we
know that everything we have in life is a gift, then we are inclined to extend a
giving heart toward others. The tension between these two points of view is hard
for American conservatives to resolve—and perhaps especially so for American
conservatives who are also serious Christians.”

I have to disagree with you here. This sounds to me like very liberal thought trying to disguise itself (and not doing a very good job of it).

American conservatives, many of whom are Christians, are generous people. We (if I may speak for American Christian conservatives) believe in working hard to provide for our families. At the same time, we are fully aware that there are some in our society and world who are not able to provide for themselves, for instance in the cases of physical or mental disabilities. We are more than willing to pitch in to help provide for the needs of such precious people—and we do, in many ways.

However, when people who could provide for themselves don’t, our generosity is presumed upon and it has come to the point of overwhelming good-hearted conservative Americans. For example, countless people have come into our nation illegally and so have to maneuver under the radar for jobs. Our health care system is overwhelmed by people—not only those who are here illegally but others as well—who abuse our hospital emergency rooms because they don’t have jobs when they could (or don’t have them legally) so they don’t have health care through their job benefits.

And yet American Christian conservatives are constantly told we are stingy, we are never generous enough, and we are wrong to want people to obey the law and work to provide for themselves and their families.

I’ll give you room to respond if you wish.

KM: I don’t disagree with you at all that American Christians (and Christians from other countries, for that matter) are often the most generous people in the world. Most charities were started by Christians, and countless good works have been done throughout society and throughout history by those who serve Christ. The danger comes when we begin to believe we own or earned our possessions—when we consider them deserved rather than God-given. The first sign of a hard heart is a lack of gratitude. If we believe everything we have came to us as a result of our own hard work, then what have we to be grateful for? But if we realize that it is only by God’s grace and mercy that we were born in a country that rewards our efforts, it helps keep us in an “attitude of gratitude.”

Does that mean we have to give away everything we have to everyone who asks (or demands)? Of course not. God expects us to be wise stewards and to remember that all we have is His. Therefore we need to seek Him before we disperse the material goods He has entrusted to us. But while we are here on this earth, serving as stewards of God’s blessings, we must learn to hold them with an open hand…and a tender heart.

From the book:

“With all the weaknesses and warts of the church, we still need to be an active part of it” (p. 156).

Beyond Me - Part 9: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

It seems the focus of your book is really discipleship: discipling the reader to deeper understanding of God’s Word and what God wants from us. True?

KM: Yes, that’s my purpose. Although I would hope that unbelievers would read the book and be called to make that first step of heart commitment to become a born-again believer, the book is actually written to those who are already converts and would like to move on to become mature Christians, disciples who are “disciplined ones,” walking in the footsteps of the Master.

Beyond Me - Part 8: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

In chapter 7 you talked about the different jobs of the Three Persons of the Godhead: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This was new and interesting to me. Can you briefly recap the differences in the work of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

KM: We hear a lot about the Trinity in Christendom, and indeed cannot truly be called a Christian without accepting that basic tenet of the faith. However, what does that mean? How does a three-in-One God work together and manifest Himself to us?

My first understanding of the Trinity was as a child, sitting in a Lutheran church with some neighbors who had graciously brought me along, and seeing a three-leaf clover on the front of the cloth draping the pulpit. The pastor explained that just as each of the leaves was a distinct and separate leaf, they were all part of the same clover. It was a simple explanation, but it made sense to me.

In Beyond Me I give one of many examples of how the Trinity works together as One. God the Father spoke to His people (Israel) through His servant, Moses, giving them the Torah (later interpreted “Law”) as a guideline for right living and right relationship. God the Son then came and fully/rightly interpreted Torah for the Jewish people, since it had been misinterpreted and misused by some of those who were supposed to understand it and explain it to the common people. Finally, God the Holy Spirit came to enable people to walk according to the full meaning of the Scriptures, given by the Father and accurately lived and modeled by God the Son.

The Trinity always works together as One.

Beyond Me - Part 7: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 137 you wrote about the children of Israel in the Old Testament: “But they began to presume on His grace and mercy. They forgot that, although they were saved by grace, there is still a law of sowing and reaping that even the sacrificial system does not override.

“And so, despite countless warnings to repent and return to the walk prescribed by God for His chosen people, they continued in sin, walking more and more in the ways of their idolatrous neighbors until they eventually ended up in exile in Babylon.”

I have heard that some leaders in the Presbyterian Church (USA) have actually said that the church should become more like our American society, being more tolerant of others like homosexuals. Do you think there’s a parallel to what happened in ancient Israel as you’ve referred to it here?

KM: The parallel is strong—and frightening. The Great Roman Empire imploded due to moral failure, and I see that possibility looming in our own beloved country. We can only spit in God’s eye and ignore His warnings so long before we can expect judgment to fall. I still pray and seek God’s mercy on our land and ask Him to send that gift of repentance, but I sometimes wonder if perhaps we have gone too far and judgment is imminent. Still, we must continue to pray—and to take a stand for righteousness every chance we get. Though we may be voices crying in the wilderness, cry we must, for countless souls are at stake. The Scriptures are clear that if we don’t warn the lost, then their blood is on our hands.

Do you see any warnings God is sending to the United States of America in our time like He sent to Israel, perhaps similar to the prophets of that time or other warnings?

KM: It would be easy to say that such catastrophic events as 9/11 are warnings from God—and perhaps they are. But I don’t pretend to be a prophet. I am simply a child of God who believes that every word in the Scriptures is true and worth dying for. Years ago I awoke from a sound sleep to hear God whisper to my heart, “Forever my Word has been settled in the heavens; now it is forever settled in your heart.” Despite anything I see going on around me—with or without obvious prophetic overtones—I will live and die based on the inerrant Word of God.

If yes, what is the way back to right living in God’s sight? What would it look like for individuals or our nation to heed the “countless warnings to repent and return to the walk prescribed by God”?

KM: Regardless of whether or not God is warning us as a country through current events, I don’t doubt for a moment that in His love and faithfulness He is calling us as individuals to repent and to commit our lives to His service. What would that look like? It would look like people who are more concerned with studying God’s Word and worshiping Him through obedience to that Word than to pleasing others and being caught up in the things our world thinks are important. It would mean giving of ourselves each time God gives us opportunity, and to do it without thought of reward. It would mean standing for truth even if everyone around us chooses to live a lie—and it means loving unconditionally those who disagree with and persecute us for our stand for righteousness.

From the book:

“As a parent, I did not wait until my children learned to walk to grant them admission into the family. They were mine from the moment of conception, and there was nothing they could do to sever that familial relationship” (p. 137).

Beyond Me - Part 6: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 90 you wrote, “A Christian stubbornly resisting the Spirit’s leading is vulnerable to the devil’s attacks and cannot fulfill the greatest commandments of all, the commandments that encompass ‘all the Law and the Prophets’: to love God will all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Such a Christian is in rebellion, and apart from repentance, her heart will continue to grow harder and harder until the voice of God grows too faint to be discerned amidst the deafening noise of countless other voices vying for our attention.”

On my June 30, 2008, blog, I wrote about a “seared conscience,” meaning repeated sin can damage that part of us that is sensitive to sin until it becomes insensitive—we just don’t feel it’s wrong any more. Is that basically what you’re saying here? What does a person need to do to cause his or her hard heart or seared conscience to become sensitive to God once again?

KM: That is absolutely what I’m saying, yes! A hard heart will block out the voice of God. I remember, when I was doing biblical counseling on a church staff some years ago, that I was often told by people who came in to see me that they just couldn’t hear from God. They insisted that they prayed and listened for an answer, but nothing came—thus implying that they weren’t at fault but God was.

In digging a bit deeper we soon discovered that in each of these cases, the person had already decided what he wanted to do (or not do) before praying about the issue and was therefore blocking out God’s answer because they were afraid it might be different from the one they wanted to hear. That’s an example of having a hard heart toward God—thinking that we know better than He what is good for us and therefore want to be in charge of calling the shots and then asking God to bless our decisions. It doesn’t work that way.

As for hardening our hearts and continuing in sin, we ALWAYS know God is warning us early in the process when we are considering sin as a choice, but when we make the choice to move ahead in that sin, we have also chosen to ignore God. With each such choice, our heart grows harder and His voice fades a bit more. It’s a dangerous place to be. If we know someone in that sort of situation, we need to pray for God to send the gift of repentance, even if it means that person’s hard heart must be broken. Better a broken heart on earth than a lost soul in eternity.

Beyond Me - Part 5: Interview with Kathi Macias

Continuing the interview with Kathi Macias, author of the new book Beyond Me: Living a You-First Life in a Me-First World (New Hope, 2008):

On page 74 you write about “the hypocritical religious leaders of Jesus’s day who were spiritually abusing the very people to whom they were supposed to be ministering. For although these religious leaders had good intentions in trying to protect God’s Word and keep the people from breaking His laws and commands, their efforts had instead deteriorated into a form of legalistic religion, a perversion of God’s intentions.”

Do you see us Christians doing this same thing at times today? If yes, in what ways and how can we change to do better? And do you see forms of “spiritual abuse” happening today. If so, where? What does it look like?

KM: Yes, sadly I think we all fall into that at times. The most comprehensive definition of spiritual abuse I ever heard was this: Any time anyone in a position of spiritual authority (whether a pastor or priest, a parent, a Sunday school teacher) uses that position to come OVER someone and add to their burdens, rather than coming UNDERNEATH and helping to relieve those burdens, it is spiritual abuse. Do we do that? Oh, yes, absolutely! And we need to repent of it.

I believe the key to dealing with spiritual abuse is to recognize the true meaning of the word submission, which is “to come underneath in a safe place.” When we realize that, we will more willingly (and joyfully!) submit to God and to others, and we will more readily provide that safe place for those who are to submit to us. That sort of understanding (and commitment to walk accordingly) will revolutionize our relationships.